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Destiny 2: The Danger Of Not Knowing Your Audience


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#1
Art of War

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I came across this article and it really does a nice job of summarizing the issues with Destiny 2 and the state of the franchise. It's long but a good read... the Destiny community over on Reddit overwhelmingly agree and support the author's assessment outlined in the article. Give it a read and post your thoughts.

 

 

Destiny 2 Was Never A Good Destiny Game: The Danger Of Not Knowing Your Audience.

Pliny The Welder
_________________________________________________________________________
 

I have a few articles/videos in progress. But I’ve got to interrupt that programming to address something...Destiny 2 is a bad Destiny game. It was a bad Destiny game on the day it released. It was a bad Destiny game during the beta, it was a bad Destiny game the moment it was conceptualized

 

And the reason it’s a bad game is because it wasn’t made for the people who like Destiny. It was made for people who don’t like Destiny, and that ends up being a lesson on arrogance, vision and losing site of who your audience is.

 

Full confession: I played a depressing, absurd, disgusting amount of Destiny. Like well over a thousand hours. Like over 1,500 hours. Entire months of my life were spent playing Destiny when you add up all that time. So while I may not be an authority on much I can confidently call myself an authority on what people who really liked Destiny 1 like. And Destiny 2 is not what people who liked Destiny 1 like. We’re going to examine what made Destiny 1 great and how Destiny 2, in search of an audience it was never intended to appeal to, changed the game so much it now has no audience at all. As always lets get a brief history out of the way.

 

Bungie started out as a small studio making well received games like Minotaur as well as some early innovative FPS titles but it didn’t rise to prominence until it released a little know console exclusive called Halo. Halo became a cultural phenomenon because it brought the competitive online multiplayer FPS genre into living rooms that finally had reliable internet and consoles that could finally handle those games and because it also featured a rich campaign with a good story and compelling lore. It also didn’t hurt that the main story of the games was one of religious war that released a couple of months after the 9/11 attacks.

 

After making several Halo games under the umbrella of Microsoft Bungie became independent again after shipping the excellent Halo Reach and began working on their next big project. An innovative new game that combined the persistent online worlds of the MMO genre with the gun play and space opera settings of Halo. The company signed a massive publishing deal with Activision/Blizzard and in 2013 announced Destiny.

 

Destiny was originally promised to be the first ever FPS/MMORPG (First Person Shooter/Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game). For people like me, that sounded like a dream come true. Making hundreds of friends through Destiny I found tons of men and women who, like myself, had played WoW for years before eventually finding the core gameplay to be too passive. Although WoW still holds a special place in my heart, modern gaming has left the MMO genre behind. We all expect much more interactive combat mechanics in our games these days. And the moment to moment gameplay of the FPS genre has broad appeal to gamers of all ages.

 

For many of us Borderlands 2 had scratched an itch we didn’t know we had while proving that deep RPG and loot based leveling could work flawlessly in an FPS game. And our hopes for Destiny was for it to be Halo crossed with Diablo (I would pay so much damn money for a game like that Bungie. I swear to god you could sell me a billion season passes and crap crates).

 

Lets leave aside the significantly smaller scope than promised that Destiny released in. Lets leave aside the small world and lack of story. Leave aside the baffling decision in an online game to not have any proximity chat or matchmaking for end game activities. Leave aside even the entirely predictable disaster that balancing PVE and PVP together would be (we’ll get to that a bit later BTW).

 

The core mechanics of Destiny were, right from the Beta, near perfect. Supers felt super, grenades were powerful, and the speed and movement of the game, while not Titanfall, were light years faster than most FPS games on the market at the time. When people talk about how good shooting aliens feels in Destiny I think they are, without realizing it, actually referring to the movement system. Very quickly combat scenarios became air borne affairs. The game was a constant blur of motion and you were more likely to shoot, run and jump your way out of trouble than you were to do the standard fps pop in and out of cover. All this is to say that the core experience of Destiny 1 was excellent because it DIDN’T feel like Halo. It didn’t feel like Call Of Duty. It felt entirely new.

 

By year 3 the game was a symphony of design. Grinding for gear had achieved a near perfect state. Players were consistently being rewarded with fun gear that changed the way you played the game and for top tier or depressingly committed players like myself there were God Roll weapons to chase, or hard mode raid gear that had actual gameplay benefits, or hidden quests that challenged a team and rewarded them with powerful weapons. The progression system was still too simple and build diversity was a bit shallow but it had begun to achieve it’s promise.

 

While it wasn’t a Massively Multiplayer Game and it wasn’t the FPS/MMORPG of our dreams it was at least an FPS/MMORPG Lite. And it was certainly a helluva start. For your average committed Destiny player they were hoping for the sequel to deepen the RPG part of the game and hopefully make the MMO part of the game massive by only being on the current generation hardware.

 

Instead Destiny 2, to the horror of fans is not an FPSMMORPG. It isn’t even an FPS/MORPG (First Person Shooter Multi Player Online Role Playing Game). It’s an FPS/MG (Fist Person Shooter Multiplayer Game). It’s a game with almost no RPG aspects. It’s a game that has you constantly ducking behind a rock waiting for a bar to go back up. It’s a game that stops being diverse by the time the campaign ends.

 

This is not what the people who loved Destiny wanted. Most of the negative reviews for Destiny focused on three things, and only one of those things actually mattered to the millions who played the game religiously. Release reviews panned Destiny for a ham-fisted incoherent lack of narrative, for an intense amount of grinding and for there not being enough to do in the game.

 

But the people who were excited to play Destiny, who stuck around for 3 years and who loved the game by the end are the same people who wanted an FPS/MMORPG. Many of them were current or former MMO players. Long grinding wasn’t a problem for those players. It was a FEATURE of the game that they loved.

 

And the narrative issues? Would Destiny have been a better game with a great story? Sure. But I’m going to let you in on a little secret here. Destiny 2's story is utter garbage. It’s a clichéd pile of tropes with only a few occasional seconds of actual character depth. Is it better than Destiny 1? Yes, because Destiny 1 quite literally barely had a story at all. But while the worst network television drek is better than nothing that doesn’t mean it’s particularly compelling. Destiny one had no story and Destiny 2 has a shit story and it doesn’t matter to the people who loved the game. At all.

 

Lets go back to the MMO side for a moment. World Of Warcraft has fantastic lore. But the actual narrative story of the base game and the expansions aren’t remotely interesting. And no one cares. World of Warcraft expansions set up a big bad, tell you he/she is a threat to everyone and everything and then set you lose to fish and mine and brew potions and kill 10 Kobolds for some dude and find 15 Maguffins in a cave in between each actual story moment. And nobody cares at all. The MMO genre isn’t built upon story content. Lore is more important than story because it allows a deeper examination of the world without annoyingly getting in the way of what MMO players are there to do. Which is play with many other people, grind for loot and take part in mechanically complex coop end game activities.

 

Destiny 1 actually would have gotten this right with even a minimally competent story (one like, for instance, Destiny 2's minimally competent story). It had deep, complex and compelling lore. The world exploration told it’s own story and none of that ever got in the way of what players were there to do. Which is shoot aliens in the face with friends until guns and armor spew out of their corpses.

 

Focusing a huge amount of development energy on the games narrative was a mistake from the start. It’s very hard to craft a compelling narrative that you can sell to 11 year old kids. Bungie was never going to be able to tell a story anyone actually cared about and still sell it to everyone. And their core fan base didn’t give a hoot about story. You can’t have a persistent game lean on it’s story. Lets give Bungie credit it doesn’t deserve and pretend that they had actually been able to deliver a deep, complex, compelling narrative in Destiny 2. Let’s pretend that story was 20 hours of memorable character development and gripping plot. That still wouldn’t have mattered. Because Destiny was always supposed to be an ongoing persistent game. WoW wants you to stick around after you’ve learned how the story ends (spoiler: the good guys win) and so does Destiny. And a great story is only really great the first time you hear it.

 

So even if they had succeeded narratively (and, again, to be clear they absolutely didn’t. The story could easily have been written by a nine year old and can be summed up as. Bad guy arrives. Does bad guy things. Good guy finds friends. Good guy beats bad guy) it still would have done nothing to address what the people who were going to buy Destiny 2 wanted from the game.

 

In hundreds of conversations with other Destiny players leading up to Destiny 2 it became obvious what the actual players of this game wanted. They wanted the quality of life and amount of content as year 3 Destiny, with greater build variety, deeper RPG and progression mechanics and new enemies and worlds to play with. I can’t recall one single person telling me they wanted a better story. I can’t recall one single person telling me they wanted less gear grinding and I definitely can’t recall one single person telling me they wanted to use their supers and grenades less and to not have access to both a sniper rifle and a rocket launcher at the same time.

 

Bungie somewhere along the line decided what was actually wrong with Destiny was Destiny. Supers, powerful abilities, interesting gear and diverse play-styles. ALL of these things were toned down or eliminated in Destiny 2. Destiny players wanted new and interesting characters to play with. Instead they got the same ones with less diversity. They wanted more diverse builds, instead they got a binary choice of ability set A or ability set B. They wanted gear perks that made the game even wilder and more interesting. Instead they got gear perks that increase the reload speed of hand cannons by 3%.

 

They wanted Destiny 2 to be a larger game that further delivered on the initial promise of an FPS/MMORPG and instead they got a narrative FPS game.

 

This points to a level of arrogance at Bungie that should be a lesson going forward (it won’t be. But it should be). To make a sequel not for the people who loved your game but for those who hated your game is a colossal misstep.

 

We discussed build diversity a moment ago and this is crucially important to what has gone wrong in Destiny 2. MMO’s typically support the intense amount of grinding by giving you a wide variety of gameplay mechanics to use during that grinding. WoW has a huge amount of character classes. And even in it’s current extremely streamlined state the builds within each of those classes offer fundamentally different ways to play the game depending upon how you spec your character. Added on top of this base system is gear and weapons that further differentiate one play style from another.

 

It’s clear that while Destiny 1 marketed itself to people who love these systems they were actually scared to fully implement them. So instead Bungie instituted a very modest level and perk system. There were 3 classes that each played differently and each class had 3 subclasses that further altered your play-style. Within each of those subclasses there were only a few actual build choices to make. And while they did have a discernible impact upon your gameplay it wasn’t tremendous.

 

Destiny instead put a large amount of the build diversity into the gear. A warlock using bad JuJu and the Obsidian mind was completely different to play than one wearing the nothing manacles and using a shotgun that decreased your grenade cool-down.

 

Looking back it’s clear that a ton of effort went into creating gear based build diversity that was pretty good, very fun to play and wasn’t at all intimidating to FPS players or players with little to no RPG experience. But second games should build upon a foundation. Destiny successfully brought FPS people into an MMO type game and they were able to handle it. It’s one thing for WoW to streamline the Vanilla progression system because that system was huge and intimidating. But Destiny’s progression system was extremely simple. Simplifying it further has nearly eliminated the varied class gameplay of the first.

 

In the name of balance Destiny 2 slows the player down. It drastically increases grenade and super cool-downs. It makes the vast majority of exotic weapons and armor underwhelming pieces that offer only small tweaks to how you play.I’m not even going to get into the insanity of not having gear drop from bosses but rather having the token system. Or the insulting and grotesque microtransactions that went from a small annoyance to a core economy system. Or the literally dozens of small simplifications that were made with apparently no audience in mind.

 

Can Destiny 2 be fixed? Yep. But it’s impossible to see them doing that because they clearly don’t understand who plays their game, they don’t understand what those people want from the game and they’re unwilling to give their players the game THEY want rather than the game Bungie imagines some untapped market wants.

 

They need to add new enemy types. New classes. They need to drastically deepen the RPG aspects of the game. They need to have much more build diversity than the first game not less. They need to balance PVP and PVE separately like every single other MMO type game because those two modes are TWO DIFFERENT MODES. They need to go back to the Destiny 1 weapon system. They need to EXPAND the game. Not shrink the game. The only people who wanted a smaller, mechanically shallower, more streamlined Destiny are the ones who were never going to enjoy Destiny 2 for more than 10-20 hours. The FPS market is not the audience Destiny ever appealed to or was originally intended to service.

 

What this all adds up to is making Destiny a pretty standard FPS game. And people don’t play FPS games for 1000 hours. They play them for 15-40 hours and then they move on.

 

The entire vision behind the making of Destiny 2 is so deeply flawed I’m almost at a loss for how it was possible to fuck it up this badly. I recall saying to a group of raid friends near the end of Destiny’s life that what I wanted in a sequel was “More Destiny with a couple of new classes and more build diversity and gear” and having everyone agree. Every one of us thought it was a terrible mistake to have a sequel instead of an expansion but the game had gotten so good by that point that we had faith they’d continue making the game deeper.

 

Instead what we got is Destiny 2: The game that literally nobody asked for. It’s clear they set out to make a game not to please the people who were initially excited for Destiny and played through all the content of Destiny 1 but rather to please the people that despised Destiny. This is almost comically misguided. It ends up being a helluva lesson about arrogance. It shows just how important it is to know your audience. I’m sure there were people at Bungie who felt the way I and all my Destiny 1 friends feel. And I’m sure people like Luke Smith felt quite validated when Destiny 2 inexplicably released to glowing reviews. But those glowing reviews were actually proof that something was wrong at the core. Because those reviews are by people who didn’t like Destiny. Most likely by people who don’t like grindy MMO type games. Those reviews were by people whose opinions really didn’t matter. And that’s a damn shame because Destiny 1 was the base for a ground breaking game. It was a base that could have produced a genre defining game. Instead Bungie decided they wanted a different audience and that the people who loved their game were too stupid to realize that what they really wanted was just another shooter after all.

 

Source: https://tay.kinja.co...nger-1821289184


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#2
HockeyDad21

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That article is definitely lengthy and covers many major points that gamers of this franchise has been saying. I certainly agree with many of those points and find that D2 is missing something for me as well, but I will continue to play it. Personally, with D2 being a sequel, I wanted it to be something a little more different than D1 - although I am not sure what those differences I was looking for. The interchangeable mods for armor and weapons have been really fun and something I can grind for and really like. The static weapon rolls have taken the grind out that D1 was known for. Iron Banner doesn't seem so 'Iron Bannery' to me. And you have your familiar factions in the Tower, but can't do anything with them unless there's a special event that takes place every once in a while - a real downer for me.


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#3
wonega

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Destiny 2 wasn't aimed at players that hated destiny, it wasnt aimed at casuals it wasnt aimed at hardcore fans.

 

it was made for Bungie employees and Activision!

 

A simpler game to make and maintain ,re-boot the game without the power grind and making the eververse the end game to increase profits.

 

It's Bungie treating it's fans like crack addicts ,cutting the product thinking the addictive element is still there and hiking the prices.

 

It's a perfect example of how to  impliment the min- maxing approach , minimum effort while maximising income.

 

I still see Bungie appologist streamers defending the game and telling us it will get better, but the truth is if you loved the power grind that isn't coming back because they built a whole new game to remove that! and if you didnt care less about the power grind but love the cosmetic grind then you will continue to get frustraited that you cant get what you want because of eververse, Bungie did not make any mistakes, they made the exact game they wanted to make!



#4
str8upnobs

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I probably agree with about half of what he says. . . The other half imo seems to be him slinging around absolutes that just aren't close to 100% true.

 

I spent over 1k hours on D1. I loved it and also hated it. Once I got to the point of asking myself seriously "Why am I doing this still?" , it was time to go. The gun grind was absolutely , unnecessarily tedious with having to level up each little node to unlock the perks etc. 

 

I'm still playing and enjoying D2, just in a much healthier manner than I was D1. And whether this guy admits it or not, that's a good thing on both counts in the long run. Not to be mean or picky, but this franchise (especially D2) has turned a lot of people into whiny children who want it their way or the highway. D1 was not perfect. D2 is not perfect. D3 won't be perfect. Life is what you make of it ; ) .


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#5
Art of War

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Played 2290 hours on Destiny 1 and I still enjoy running the Nightfall on D1 with my gf each week. I have about 100 hours on Destiny 2 and stopped playing months ago because of the reasons outlined in the article. I did go back to play the DLC since I bought the expansion pass but stopped playing the DLC campaign after a few missions and put D2 back on the shelf.

 

The best thing about Destiny 2 is that it's so bad that I have no desire to play it and gives me the time to play other games.  Still holding onto hope that Bungie realizes their mistakes and reverses course. But if the Masterworks slot is any indication of Bungie's attempt to fix D2 then the game will continue to be garbage.

 

Just go back and play some PvE or PvP in Destiny 1 with your favorite assortment of D1 weapons and you'll soon be reminded how crappy D2 has become.


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#6
michael6745

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Happy New Year everyone.  I'm back in town and I'm catching up on Destiny news.  Listening to some of the podcast and other avenues of Destiny news  I partake in, there seems to be a revelation that D2 was actually rebooted in 2016 and they only had 18 months to put D2 together.

 

I'm not sure if this news is accurate, but if so, it sheds a light on why much of what we expected never made it to the final product of D2.  

 

I didn't read the whole article that you posted, but I agree with several items that I did read. 

 

I'm still having fun in D2. I just did my first and second Raid runs last night.  I had a blast.  I'm going to be doing the Raid Lair this weekend and hopefully some Trials. There is still much for me to do and there is also, just the fun I normally have of just playing the game to play it.

 

I believe that Bungie will quickly "fix" D2.  It may not be exactly everything that we want, but I believe they'll make it close.  I'm just hoping it is soon and it's done before the next DLC so people can't complain that they have to pay again to get the Destiny they expected.



#7
Lil'Ubo

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After 4, 5 years, I'm not interested in remaining married to Destiny. I'll binge on it on occasion. But so many fantastic games out there! Breath of the Wild is glorious!

Long story short - date other games! It's healthier for you!

.... No. My wife doesn't approve of this message lol
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#8
Art of War

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I spent over 1k hours on D1. I loved it and also hated it. Once I got to the point of asking myself seriously "Why am I doing this still?" , it was time to go. The gun grind was absolutely , unnecessarily tedious with having to level up each little node to unlock the perks etc.

 

Or you could have just used 20 Motes of Light to level up all the perks of your new awesome randomly rolled weapon instantly.


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#9
sgtcoy

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This article hit on about everything that I have talked about with guys in our clan for months.  D1 wasn't perfect but close enough that we thought that when D2 was released it would pick up the base of D1 and fix and expand where D1 was lacking.  Unfortunately, this game wasn't made for the players who stuck around consistently for 3 years.  It was made for the guys who played D1 maybe 2 times a month in between other games and players who wanted instant gratification, with rewards, from playing 1-2 hours a month.  I get that those players need love too but they would have been better off making a D1.5 and give them one world (Earth) for instance and gave them one raid, 3 strikes, 2 choices in crucible (quickplay and multiplayer) and loot drops after every kill.  They would have been happy and Bungie could have put out a D2 that was what the rest of us wanted.  Casual gamers, like the comments above, can still enjoy this game for what it is.  For gamers like me, it would be more beneficial and entertaining to watch paint dry than to play D2 in its current state. 

 

I'm glad there are guys/gals who are still playing D2!  That is awesome if you like it.  It has allowed me personally to go back to a game (The Division) that listened to the audience and finally fixed a amazing game.  And because of that, my clan is more active in The Division currently, than at D2 a month after release. 

 

I've watched/read what I found to be one of the many problems (imo) with this game.  There is a thread literally complaining about getting duplicate exotics because they have everything but 1 or 2 items.  The game has been out roughly 3 months and you have everything.  This goes back to instant gratification and not working towards anything.  I guess my old school thought process is, that if you want something you need to work for it.  If you got a new exotic every time you got an engram, what would that "exotic" engram be worth if you have everything?  It would be a couple of shards and that's it. 

 

Like I've said before, in D1 I had roughly 1500+hours in.  I can't check for sure because I'm at work but its close.  D2 I have a 100 hours and haven't fired it up since November 4th (I think).  Pretty much sums up my feelings on it.


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#10
str8upnobs

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Or you could have just used 20 Motes of Light to level up all the perks of your new awesome randomly rolled weapon instantly.

 

Iirc, I had one foot out the door by the time the motes of light became an upgrade currency. I could be wrong on that though. Did they perhaps used to drop from completing the NF? If so I stuck around for a lil bit after that.

 

I just remember the horrendous grind to unlock all of the nodes on every single gun/armor piece and thinking to myself damn this is starting to feel like work, and that's not why I play games. Quite the opposite reason in fact.


  Casual gamers, like the comments above,

 

So what exactly defines a casual gamer? Lol, because I was one of the "comments above" , have put waaay too many hours into anything Destiny, and am enjoying D2. Albeit as I said before, it's far from perfect.



#11
sgtcoy

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A casual gamer is exactly what I wrote above.  1-2 hours a week and could vary +/- 1-2 hours. 

 

I was curious of the state of the game so I typed in Destiny 2 on google and clicked news and read the multiple sources addressing Eververse and microtransactions.  Because I've played so little of this game and didn't play the holiday themed event, I hadn't heard much about this. 

 

So according to those "sources" the majority of the items for the event were locked behind Eververse and only a smaller % was thru another vendor.  I read it last night so my memory is hit or miss.  But if the article is correct, then I see why everyone was blowing up about Eververse.  I'm not going to lie, I was reading it and smiling and evil laughing inside because this is the type of crap that caused the hardcore gamers to leave in droves. 

 

I also read on another article that this game was only created and completed in 16 months and not the 2+ years that most people say.  That is why you have a stripped down version of what the game could have been.  They left out the things that you guys are getting in the updates because they ran out of time.  This is also what I said since the beginning.  I understand to keep putting out content they have to hold some stuff back but..... the majority of the stuff they held back should have been in the release. 

 

Once again, if you are having fun that is great.  If you don't want to chase gear and would rather it be handed to you on a silver platter, then this game is for you.  For the rest of us, this game fell short and continues to fall short with every update and DLC they put out.  Maybe year 6 will be the year that we get back to where we were at during year 3...  If not then Bungie will only see the "casual" gamer stick around and play their "pay to play" game.


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#12
Art of War

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A casual gamer is exactly what I wrote above.  1-2 hours a week and could vary +/- 1-2 hours. 

 

I was curious of the state of the game so I typed in Destiny 2 on google and clicked news and read the multiple sources addressing Eververse and microtransactions.  Because I've played so little of this game and didn't play the holiday themed event, I hadn't heard much about this. 

 

So according to those "sources" the majority of the items for the event were locked behind Eververse and only a smaller % was thru another vendor.  I read it last night so my memory is hit or miss.  But if the article is correct, then I see why everyone was blowing up about Eververse.  I'm not going to lie, I was reading it and smiling and evil laughing inside because this is the type of crap that caused the hardcore gamers to leave in droves. 

 

I also read on another article that this game was only created and completed in 16 months and not the 2+ years that most people say.  That is why you have a stripped down version of what the game could have been.  They left out the things that you guys are getting in the updates because they ran out of time.  This is also what I said since the beginning.  I understand to keep putting out content they have to hold some stuff back but..... the majority of the stuff they held back should have been in the release. 

 

Once again, if you are having fun that is great.  If you don't want to chase gear and would rather it be handed to you on a silver platter, then this game is for you.  For the rest of us, this game fell short and continues to fall short with every update and DLC they put out.  Maybe year 6 will be the year that we get back to where we were at during year 3...  If not then Bungie will only see the "casual" gamer stick around and play their "pay to play" game.

 

Gamers are typically divided into one of two categories - casuals or hobbyists. By the shear definition, "hobbyist" players are willing to devote more time to a game and desire more complexity. Whereas casual players want a more streamlined gaming experience to be able to obtain and complete the objectives in a much shorter period of time with less effort. 

 

Regarding the Destiny franchise... the hobbyist players want more RPG elements incorporated into Destiny to achieve the complexity they desire. While the casual players want fewer RPG elements incorporated and even want many of the existing minimal RPG elements removed (hence Static Rolls and Shallow Skill trees).

 

Destiny 1 was a FPS with "RPG-lite" elements incorporated. Designed to satisfy the most basic requirements of hobbyists while introducing casual FPS players to basic RPG elements.

 

Bungie initially intended Destiny to be an MMORPG with FPS gameplay.  Now halfway through the franchise many people feel like they aren't getting what Bungie initially set out to accomplish and deliver what they promised. Destiny 2 backtracked almost entirely into a FPS with even fewer RPG elements than Destiny 1 and "shallowied up" the game, and a vast portion of the community is not happy about it.

 

It may be an impossible formula to balance Destiny to satisfy both sides. Casuals that want Destiny to be a less complex FPS with no RPG elements and hobbyists want Destiny to be a FPS with a heavy infusion of RPG elements to add depth and complexity to the game.

 

My opinion is that unfortunately without the addition of RPG elements, Destiny is just another Call of Duty and not the groundbreaking epic MMORPG/FPS Bungie promised.


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#13
str8upnobs

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Being a pessimist at heart really has me confused with all of the D2 hate. On one hand I see the flaws (and was there on day D1 for all of it's warts too), but don't feel they're nearly as egregious as most of the internet would claim. On the other hand I have probably averaged 8-30 hours of game time weekly on D2 since it's release (And yes this is waning at the moment). I remember the backlash on D1's release and shortly thereafter as well. The media- Too grindy, No story, Shallow at it's core. The gamers- Bounties/Patrols are boring, Not enough loot, RNG SUXXXXXXXX, Bungie always wants to ruin the fun stuff etc. etc.

 

I guess with my vain attempt at optimism, I feel. . . After reading way too many forum/reddit posts, talking amongst others that I play with, and experiencing the game/s myself I believe the truth doesn't lie with the people who love the game/s, or the salt mongers. It's somewhere in the middle.



#14
michael6745

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Before I started playing Destiny, I was a true casual player.  I played Fallout 3, 2 times through with over 200 hours played.  I never completed all the trophies. I knew there were things I wasn't going to get.  I just played because I enjoyed losing myself in the open world.

 

Once I started playing Destiny, there were so many things I didn't know about the game.  I spent the first 9 months plodding around by myself.  It wasn't until I got involved with this message board that I started turning into a more hard core player.  I stared to learn more about the mechanics of the game, armor set up, etc.

 

They took much of that away in D2 and dumbed it down way too much for the sake of the casual. Which means we don't need to go to other sources to find out how things work.

 

That was part of the glory of D1 for me.  The community.  Once I found the Destiny community, I was hooked.

 

Even though they tout D2 as a game you play with friends.  They took the community away.  Strikes no longer match you with the same players in consecutive strikes, nor does the Crucible.  I don't need to go to YouTube to find out this, or go to Reddit to find out that.  Or discuss on here that awesome play I made in the Crucible.  

 

Yes, there are content issues in D2.  I should not have to rank up in EV to get items I should get at the end of a strike. etc.  But that's all been said many times.  It's been heard. It will be fixed.  

 

I just want there to be a reason for the Community again in Destiny.  


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#15
sgtcoy

sgtcoy

    Forum Lieutenant


  • 184 posts


I watched a video the other day talking about complaints that he has not heard speaking to friends and people in the community.  And that is the storyline.  Does it really matter if there isn't a great story?  For me, honestly, I never listened to the cut scenes, never followed along on the campaign.  I got the jest of it and that was good enough for me.  I realize some people love knowing everything about the game their playing but for playing D1 for 2.5 years I couldn't tell you much about what was going on.  I guess I played the game for the game. The experience like Michael said was the community.  Pre-D1 I played with about 3 or 4 people on various games (COD, Battlefield, etc.).  After I picked up D1 and joined a clan I played with 50+ people fairly often and enjoyed whatever we did.  The problem that we ran into with D2 is that because it took away so much that a lot of people enjoyed the players in our clan/friendlist just evaporated.  I checked Saturday night and there was not 1 person online playing D2 in my clan at 11 p.m.  That is something that never happened in D1 ever.  And I mean ever.  It just speaks volumes to where the game is currently at. 

 

Do I think/hope they will fix it?  Yes.  I just hope they get it back to where we were heading at the end of D1.  Except better.  The problem is for me, IMO, they will have to completely get rid of almost all of the changes they implemented in D2 before I will spend a second of my time playing.  The 4v4 crucible, static rolls on guns, get rid of eververse, bring back being able to equip a sniper and a rocket launcher, make supers "SUPER" again, the token system needs fixed or gone (I want a reward for completing a challenge not a token), factions need to play a part and not just 1 time a month.  Make Iron Banner and Trials mean something.  Because everyone used to play D1 during Iron Banner even if it was the only time you played D1 that month!  Just to many things to name but for the game to be picked up again by the hobbyist something has to change.  Time will tell if that will happen or if Destiny will go down game series with potential that lost sight of what mattered and only worried about making money. 


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#16
str8upnobs

str8upnobs

    Forum Sergeant


  • 76 posts


 

 

1.  I just hope they get it back to where we were heading at the end of D1.  Except better. 

 

2. factions need to play a part and not just 1 time a month.  Make Iron Banner and Trials mean something.  Because everyone used to play D1 during Iron Banner even if it was the only time you played D1 that month! 

 

 

 

To those points: 1. I think that's a very fair and valid expectation of D2, that I'd agree wholeheartedly was a mistake on their part. I have no problem with a grind. It's the grind just for the sake of a grind which I felt some things in early D1 were. When you finally awoke from the endorphin high and realized you were basically a rat doing something over and over again for that menial feeling that you can never quite achieve as you did at the beginning. I can honestly say though, that I left D1 sometime in the summer of 2015 for good. So I'm mostly ignorant to most of the QoL changes that everyone else enjoyed through y3 D1.

 

2. These "events" have always been hollow and pointless to me. . . Rewards are meh at best (at least form my experience so far in D2.), although there have been a few aesthetically pleasing armor pieces I picked up, they're really not worth any sort of grinding imo. After seeing the weapon rewards from the first two faction rallies, I quit even bothering with them at all. IB seemed to be a step up from the faction stuff (and I know people seemed to like it alot in D1), but again after trying the first two weeks of it it doesn't seem to offer much.

 

 

What I really have always enjoyed most out of Destiny as a whole is the high level content (Raids, NF etc.). I did enjoy Leviathan. . . But after maybe 4-5 completions our clan quickly moved on to other things and cannot be bothered to group up for any activities outside of maybe a prestige NF or two a week. In contrast we were running VoG/Crota well into the following year of D1. That would be my main beef with D2. That they didn't really focus on the end game content nearly enough. The raid gear sucked and had none of the charm/perks of early D1 raid gear, which you were proud to have acquired. /rant


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#17
michael6745

michael6745

    Heroic Member


  • 5115 posts


Faction Rally is meh for me.  It just comes down to who can cheese the most tokens.  This needs to be changed to a Crucible event. Pair faction against faction. NM against DO, etc. The winning team all get 5 tokens, the losing team 2 tokens.  I'm okay with the rewards, but they could be better.

 

Iron Banner in D2 is a complete disappointment.  They made it just another crucible mode.  What's the point?  It needs to be light enabled.  When I first got into the IB in D1, I was horrible.  But it made me want to get better.  


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#18
Vipertec

Vipertec

    Forum General


  • 4199 posts


I would like to see Mayhem stay , even though it's gone , I wish they would have left it in ! 


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#19
sgtcoy

sgtcoy

    Forum Lieutenant


  • 184 posts


I can understand if the changes that they incorporated improved the experience or at worst, stayed the same but very few, if any, hit the mark. 

 

The grind in D1, like collecting mats for the exotic sword for instance, was very monotonous.  Won't get any argument from me there. But the grind for gear/guns was what kept a lot of us going.  The problem with giving guns and gear away like candy, is that you get everything and then from then on out you get duplicates.  And with static rolls, the enjoyment of getting a "reward" becomes watered down.  There should be a fine line between getting good rewards, say from completing tougher challenges, and just ranking up in crucible/gunsmith/etc.  Like in D1, when you turned in a legendary engram, there was always a small chance of getting a exotic.  Was it something you didn't already have?  Not likely, but it was rewarding to think you scratched off a winning ticket rather than the alternative.  The chances of getting a good legendary should be more rare to receive then a plain Jane legendary piece.  So when you got a more rare piece it would actually be more gratifying then just getting them dropped constantly. 

 

I realize that this goes back to casual and hobbyist and what their expectations are from playing a game but there needs to be something done to keep both types of gamers actively playing. 

 

For months I have been salty on here by saying the game was incomplete and this is just one of the reasons why.  For instance, if they added content or playlists for example for players who like 6v6 or 3v3 opposed to 4v4, it would get more people involved.  I understand their reason for not doing it though.  Just like in year 3 where they made rotating playlists because the amount of players playing Salvage for instance was less then Domination.  Give less options and there will be more in the playlists.  I get it..  Can't make everyone happy...  Static rolls on guns is another area where they chose the easy way out instead of meeting in the middle.  I understand that they didn't want the casual to be at a disadvantage because their gun had weaker perks than the hobbyist.  Can't make everyone happy but why not give certain guns different rolls by completing more challenging content (ie., n/f, raid, etc).  It would allow more replayablity while giving the hobbyist something more to grind for. 

 

Bottom line is that there are/were multiple ways to improve the game for everyone.  That is why I have in the past called Bungie lazy because in my narrow-mindedness I saw, what I thought were easy fixes, disregarded for the simpler approach.  Its not that I'm complaining to complain.  These are the views of many people I have spoken to about the current game. 

 

Like Michael said earlier, It was the community experience helped make the game what it was.  Take that out of the equation and you are left with nothing.


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#20
VaeVictus

VaeVictus

    Recruit


  • 16 posts

Iirc, I had one foot out the door by the time the motes of light became an upgrade currency. I could be wrong on that though. Did they perhaps used to drop from completing the NF? If so I stuck around for a lil bit after that.

 

I just remember the horrendous grind to unlock all of the nodes on every single gun/armor piece and thinking to myself damn this is starting to feel like work, and that's not why I play games. Quite the opposite reason in fact.


 

So what exactly defines a casual gamer? Lol, because I was one of the "comments above" , have put waaay too many hours into anything Destiny, and am enjoying D2. Albeit as I said before, it's far from perfect.

Casual gamer would describe how much effort and playtime I put into Baked Chicken (destiny 2). I may touch it for 30 minutes to an hour and then get bored and move on. (Note: currently enjoying Battlefield 4 again)

 

A non casual gamer would describe me when Destiny 1. I spent so much time playing this game with my same group of friends (8-12). I'm sad to say that we've all moved on to different games and hardly play anymore. I enjoyed my 78th time beating Atheon as much as my 2nd (b/c let's admit, the first time was fantastic and can not be replicated) because the game was fun, and the community aspect it created made it that much more fun. 

 

The 180 degree shift was not what I expected. 


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#21
DaniArrow

DaniArrow

    Forum Commander


  • 1239 posts


I was really into it while leveling up my character and playing the story for the first time. I thought it was great. But after two weeks or so, when I already had the platinum trophy on PS4 (which seemed really akward 'cause it took me like a year to get it in D1) I realized that there's nothing to grind for. And the grind is what kept me going. 6 months til I had my first Gjallarhorn. 11 VoG Raids til I finally got Fatebringer. Endless PvP til I had that Eyasluna with a good set of perks. The snipers with the right scope. 

 

D2 has none of this. All the weapons are pretty much the same (check out KackisHD's latest video in which he shows four 450 auto rifles and you can't tell any difference except the color). At best you can farm mods for your armor so it plays out well with your subclass, but that's about it. 

 

I play like every 3 weeks just to catch up with some friends overseas, but I don't care about anything I get as loot at all really. Even the exotics are mostly crap.

 

So yeah, Bungie have successfully gotten rid of the core of hardcore players.  :P


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