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#1
Kingdomville

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I just wanted to take a moment to applaud PlanetDestiny for their latest video. If you haven't seen it already, it's a sarcastic take on how we as community members can be better to Bungie.


Stori highlights a lot of key points here, but most importantly he talks about the dangers of unhelpful criticism, and destructive praise and ignorance likewise (I know I certainly fall into the latter category). We need to be able to provide Bungie with feedback that is firm but fair, not just blindly scream at them and spam "KYS", but also not to sweep all of Destiny 2's problems under the rug and act like they don't exist.

That's all for now, Guardians. Be good to each other, and I'll see you on the battlefield.
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#2
Art of War

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A tidal wave of complaints are the community's driving mandating force behind pushing for a solution.

 

Not everyone is skilled enough in game design or articulate enough to convey solutions to fix Bungie's mistakes. Bungie needs to know the community is generally unhappy. If Bungie has to sort through posts and posts of complaints in search of solutions, instead of coming up with their own solutions that they are being paid to do, then that's their problem.



#3
Kingdomville

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A tidal wave of complaints are the community's driving mandating force behind pushing for a solution.

 

Not everyone is skilled enough in game design or articulate enough to convey solutions to fix Bungie's mistakes. Bungie needs to know the community is generally unhappy. If Bungie has to sort through posts and posts of complaints in search of solutions, instead of coming up with their own solutions that they are being paid to do, then that's their problem.

Which is fair enough, but the main point here is simply that we need to be fair to Bungie, as well as each other.

Let's highlight the problems, but do so with an open mind. Every single Bungie employee is a person, that has thoughts, ideas and feelings, just as we do. Being passionate about something is good, but not if it comes to a point where we tear down others over said passions.

Similarly, we can't be to lenient towards them about it either. We can't drown out the voices of those who do try to identify their own concerns to them in a fair manner.

At the end of the day, constructive criticism is the only thing that's going to benefit Bungie in helping them to design a better game. I remember when I made a pretty scathing post before the release of Destiny 2, about an interview where Luke Smith talked about what sorts of storylines we could expect for D2. In retrospect, I completely regret the way I trashed their decisions. I was a fanboy screaming about how I wasn't getting my way in a game that meant so much to me, and it wasn't helping anyone.

Again, to summarise, criticise simply with an open heart and an open mind. Bungie's gotten a lot better a communicating with us in recent years, and they have a lot of pressure on their shoulders, so let's make their jobs easier, not harder.



#4
Art of War

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Well when I see and read interviews where Luke Smith is ferociously sticking by his decisions (ex. vigorously defending static rolls) with his usual seemingly and well known arrogant attitude it seems like Bungie is stubbornly resistant to any suggestions. 


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#5
Kingdomville

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Well when I see and read interviews where Luke Smith is ferociously sticking by his decisions (ex. vigorously defending static rolls) with his usual seemingly and well known arrogant attitude it seems like Bungie is stubbornly resistant to any suggestions. 

But Luke Smith is just one guy, and he's not a particularly good speaker, as he's shown us over the years. What he says doesn't always line up with what Bungie thinks as a whole, and it's not fair to say that they're completely resistant to any of the suggestions we make (and if they were that ignorant, it would be hard to blame them considering the way everybody treats them). The likelihood is that they've taken into account and evaluated everything we've been saying, and that they think some of our pushes simply are not right for Destiny 2. It is their game after all. I think they have every right to put their own vision before ours.

There's a pretty good case for the defence of something like static weapon rolls anyway. If you need the best example, Datto made a great video a couple of weeks ago explaining why random weapon rolls aren't the way to go for Destiny 2, especially considering that their main target audience at the moment is the casual gamer anyway. Hell, there have even been time's when Bungie's given us exactly what we wanted, and we've still complained. Remember weapon reforging in D1? Oh boy, didn't that turn out great?

Not to mention that there's a mountain of evidence that proves Bungie is listening to us and thinking about our criticism, ideas and suggestions.

"We’re reading as much of your chatter as we possibly can. There are millions of you, after all. One thing we have noticed is a lot of discussions about the Endgame and how it can be improved. Right now, these discussions are also happening in our studio. We are listening, but need time to digest everything and draw up the best plans for the future. We will have more to say on this soon. Please stay tuned, and keep the conversation rolling." (TWAB: 10/12/17)

We just have to give them time.



#6
Art of War

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But Luke Smith is just one guy, and he's not a particularly good speaker, as he's shown us over the years. What he says doesn't always line up with what Bungie thinks as a whole, and it's not fair to say that they're completely resistant to any of the suggestions we make (and if they were that ignorant, it would be hard to blame them considering the way everybody treats them). The likelihood is that they've taken into account and evaluated everything we've been saying, and that they think some of our pushes simply are not right for Destiny 2. It is their game after all. I think they have every right to put their own vision before ours.

There's a pretty good case for the defence of something like static weapon rolls anyway. If you need the best example, Datto made a great video a couple of weeks ago explaining why random weapon rolls aren't the way to go for Destiny 2, especially considering that their main target audience at the moment is the casual gamer anyway. Hell, there have even been time's when Bungie's given us exactly what we wanted, and we've still complained. Remember weapon reforging in D1? Oh boy, didn't that turn out great?

Not to mention that there's a mountain of evidence that proves Bungie is listening to us and thinking about our criticism, ideas and suggestions.

"We’re reading as much of your chatter as we possibly can. There are millions of you, after all. One thing we have noticed is a lot of discussions about the Endgame and how it can be improved. Right now, these discussions are also happening in our studio. We are listening, but need time to digest everything and draw up the best plans for the future. We will have more to say on this soon. Please stay tuned, and keep the conversation rolling." (TWAB: 10/12/17)

We just have to give them time.

 

True Bungie can make their game anyway they want. But the money in my pocket can be spent anyway that I want. If Bungie continues to push this watered down unfulfilling version of Destiny on us then many people in the current Destiny community are ready to move on to somthing else. That's just the facts and you can go straight over the the Bungie forum to see the vast majority of the Destiny community does not like the watered down version of Destiny that was created for lazy casual players.


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#7
Kingdomville

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True Bungie can make their game anyway they want. But the money in my pocket can be spent anyway that I want. If Bungie continues to push this watered down unfulfilling version of Destiny on us then many people in the current Destiny community are ready to move on to somthing else. That's just the facts and you can go straight over the the Bungie forum to see the vast majority of the Destiny community does not like the watered down version of Destiny that was created for lazy casual players.

And it's perfectly fine that they don't like it. What isn't okay is the way that the majority of people are complaining, either without any constructive criticism to offer, or by making things even worse and acting like their are no problems. Because there absolutely are problems with the game: skill-trees, hunter class abilities, and grenade launchers are just a few I could name personally.
As the community, we often tend to treat Bungie an awful lot like a vending machine, and we shake them up when we don't get our way. That's what needs to change.

And I don't know that I'd call casual players lazy either. As Stori mentions in this video, the majority of those people simply don't have a whole lot of time to grind the game as much as we do, so Bungie tries to respect the time they do put in by making them feel just as rewarded as the hardcore player-base.

Is it right? Maybe not. Would it be better to simply devote everything to the hardcore players? Absolutely not. The best thing they can do for us is try to find a middle-ground, which is by no means a breeze.

After working as a checkout-chick for two years, I know how it feels to have people spit in your face for things that they don't truly understand, things that are out of your control. I want to try and avoid putting the people who work at Bungie through that same rubbish. They have design processes, and they have ideas. We can identify where our problems lie, but if we scream and yell about it without anything to offer, then we're not helping anybody.



#8
Art of War

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When paying customers are not pleased with a service or product they have a right to complain and are not obligated to provide a solution.

 

If your pizza that you ordered is delivered an hour late...

1. Do you complain? 

2. Are you (as a paying customer) obligated to explain to the delivery person a better route to your home and call the business to recommend a process for making deliveries on time?

 

When the grocery store you are shopping at has extremely long checkout lines with too few registers open...

1. Do you complain?

2. Do you (as a paying customer) sit down with the store manager and work together to find a better workplace schedule for his employees to provide better customer service?

 

Sure customers that are willing to go the extra mile to provide suggestions may be beneficial to an incompetent business that is incapable of satisfying their paying customers. But, paying customers have zero obligation to assist a business with improving their poor product or service. However, paying customers have every right in the world to complain about it.

 

If Bungie needs us to collaborate with them to develop video games then they need to pay us a consultation fee. A game that we have to pay for that cost Bungie hundreds of millions of dollars to develop should not have to rely on customers to find solutions to their issues.

 

Back to the pizza delivery scenario... if my pizza delivery is an hour late, it's not my responsibility to figure out a solution for the company to deliver pizzas in a timely matter. But I darn sure have the right as a dissatisfied paying customer to complain about it.  :)

 

 

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BTW on a side note, if you think it's bad now wait until the PC version comes out. PC gamers are the most hardcore gamers on the planet and they are going to eat this watered down shallow unfulfilling version Destiny and Bungie alive. 


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#9
michael6745

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When paying customers are not pleased with a service or product they have a right to complain and are not obligated to provide a solution.

 

If your pizza that you ordered is delivered an hour late...

1. Do you complain? 

2. Are you (as a paying customer) obligated to explain to the delivery person a better route to your home and call the business to recommend a process for making deliveries on time?

 

When the grocery store you are shopping at has extremely long checkout lines with too few registers open...

1. Do you complain?

2. Do you (as a paying customer) sit down with the store manager and work together to find a better workplace schedule for his employees to provide better customer service?

 

Sure customers that are willing to go the extra mile to provide suggestions may be beneficial to an incompetent business that is incapable of satisfying their paying customers. But, paying customers have zero obligation to assist a business with improving their poor product or service. However, paying customers have every right in the world to complain about it.

 

If Bungie needs us to collaborate with them to develop video games then they need to pay us a consultation fee. A game that we have to pay for that cost Bungie hundreds of millions of dollars to develop should not have to rely on customers to find solutions to their issues.

 

Back to the pizza delivery scenario... if my pizza delivery is an hour late, it's not my responsibility to figure out a solution for the company to deliver pizzas in a timely matter. But I darn sure have the right as a dissatisfied paying customer to complain about it.  :)

 

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

BTW on a side note, if you think it's bad now wait until the PC version comes out. PC gamers are the most hardcore gamers on the planet and they are going to eat this watered down shallow unfulfilling version Destiny and Bungie alive. 

 

 

I have no issues with customers complaining.  But are you going to tell the pizza delivery guy you hope he dies in a car crash because he was late with your pizza?  Are you going to tell the grocery store clerk that you hope she loses her job because she was slow today checking out customers?  I don't think so.  But that's what's happening in the Bungie world. They're wishing people dead and or lose their jobs because of a video game.  

 

This is where we need to take a step back and see the reality of life.  This is a video game.  We have all spent countless hours in playing it and have expectations that we feel were not met.  Criticism and feed back is one thing.  But to wish harm on someone because of it is out of line which is where they were going with that video.  

 


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#10
Art of War

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I have no issues with customers complaining.  But are you going to tell the pizza delivery guy you hope he dies in a car crash because he was late with your pizza?  Are you going to tell the grocery store clerk that you hope she loses her job because she was slow today checking out customers?  I don't think so.  But that's what's happening in the Bungie world. They're wishing people dead and or lose their jobs because of a video game.  

 

This is where we need to take a step back and see the reality of life.  This is a video game.  We have all spent countless hours in playing it and have expectations that we feel were not met.  Criticism and feed back is one thing.  But to wish harm on someone because of it is out of line which is where they were going with that video.  

 

 

I'm certainly not advocating or defending threats or violence towards Bungie employees. Sure those people are legitimately crazy.

 

But, I hate to break you the news, the people that are incompetent at their job should lose their job. Even super Liberal politically correct Elon Musk fired 700 Telsa employees after their poor performance reviews and incompetence just over a week ago. That's the fact of the real world, there are no participation trophies for just showing up. I used to own a marine construction company (building boat docks and marinas). If one of my 20 employees was repeatedly making poor decisions that indicated incompetence then they were replaced.

 

Btw, I was also a cashier in high school and the store tracked our scan rate. If a cashier fell below 30 items per minute they were let go, moved to another department, or demoted.

 

So to answer your questions... no of course I'm not going to hope the late pizza delivery guy dies in a car crash. To a cashier that can not meet the requirements of her job, then she shouldn't have that job.

 

However, it's wrong to categorize people complaining with the crazy people advocating violence towards Bungie and attempt to group them together to push your narrative.


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#11
Kingdomville

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I'm certainly not advocating or defending threats or violence towards Bungie employees. Sure those people are legitimately crazy.

 

But, I hate to break you the news, the people that are incompetent at their job should lose their job. Even super Liberal politically correct Elon Musk fired 700 Telsa employees after their poor performance reviews and incompetence just over a week ago. That's the fact of the real world, there are no participation trophies for just showing up. I used to own a marine construction company (building boat docks and marinas). If one of my 20 employees was repeatedly making poor decisions that indicated incompetence then they were replaced.

 

Btw, I was also a cashier in high school and the store tracked our scan rate. If a cashier fell below 30 items per minute they were let go, moved to another department, or demoted.

 

So to answer your questions... no of course I'm not going to hope the late pizza delivery guy dies in a car crash. To a cashier that can not meet the requirements of her job, then she shouldn't have that job.

 

However, it's wrong to categorize people complaining with the crazy people advocating violence towards Bungie and attempt to group them together to push your narrative.

Oh, I agree, we're not trying to say that anyone who has a complaint is immediately a crazy person. We're just saying that those people who are in that group aren't helping anyone.

To put it simply the people who say, "Didn't really like how you guys made weapon rolls set instead of random. I don't have a solution, it's just something I wanted to point out.  :) ", are the ones who are actually benefiting the game and helping Bungie out. The people who rant, "STUPID F***ING BUNGIE WITH YOUR SET WEAPON ROLLS AND S***, DO YOU EVEN KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT GAME DESIGN, I HOPE A F***ING PIANO FALLS ON YOU.", aren't helping anyone.

Our criticism can help Bungie, but not if it's aggressive.


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