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Shotgun Nerf-Thoughts


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#1
Sidewinder Mk.49

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This December, we'll be seeing another massive weapon patch. It's addresses basically all the weapon types, and a bunch of the exotic weapons. If you don't know about it, you should totally read on it. Anyways, in it, obviously, is a shotgun nerf. Bungie has been trying to nerf shotguns since the start of the game. The first weapon patch tried to hit it. It didn't really work (it didn't work at all). They tried again, removing shot package in year 2. And again they will try. And I don't think they did a very good job. Let me rephrase: I don't think it was an elegant solution. And maybe an elegant solution isn't the way right now; you can't always talk your way out of fights. Sometimes you need to obliterate the enemy. I'm pretty sure that even if it doesn't exterminate shotguns, it'll be hitting shotguns pretty hard. But I think it was a bad way to address it. Here's why.

 

I'm fine with what they're trying to do with range falloff. They're bringing that down to melee range, so that at max, you'll see damage falloff starting at Blink Strike range. That's a nice fix, and I'm interested in how this plays out. They are also increasing the stow and ready times on all shotguns. I don't know how I feel about this. If you want to pull out the shotgun in a surprise situation, I think you should be able to do that quickly. I'm fine with longer stow time; I'm a bit worried with ready time. Being punished for only using your shotgun is good, but the ready time makes it as though you would have to do that in a close quarter situation (which, is what they intend, I guess). Here are the bigger points: lower stability across all shotguns, slower reload speed across all shotguns, slower ADS speed across all shotguns, and slower base movement speed when a shotgun is equipped (only when walking and ADS. Sprinting has its own section). Stability? That's fine, and it's never really been an issue with shotguns; the issue is the massive effective range of these guns. Slower ADS speed is good. This makes it so that you can't just snap straight down sights and get that Rangefinder buff. Slower walk speed is good, as it, again, discourages using the shotgun the entire game. The last one is the problem. Reload speed? Really? Is this the best way to discourage shotgun use? This is there to just balance the gun. This has some, if not only, intention to discourage shotgun use. It is overused. But should it be punished in non-combat related areas? I don't think so. This is exactly why this isn't an elegant fix. And Bungie is capable of that. They remedied both Final Round and (to come in this patch) Luck in the Chamber in snipers by making them only work in precision shots. That's beautiful. It keeps the perk working, while taking away what made it broken.

 

What I'm concerned about is not PvP. I'm worried about PvE. This nerf will basically make shotguns obsolete in PvE. What? They increased PvE damage from 1.55 to 1.6? NO WAY? That'll make up for everything! Only it wont. Reduced reload speed in PvE? Not only this, now you need to be in melee range of the enemy you want to kill, and PvE enemies will murder you with their melee(longer reach, a lot of damage). The close-and-personal style in PvE is already hard to keep; this nerf could make it impossible. Think about this. This is another reason why that sort of deterrence that doesn't involve making the weapon not broken is bad; it ruins its value in PvE. I've said this basically every weapon patch. Bungie needs to make PvE and PvP weapon balances separate. It's a different world. The AR nerf was a prime example. They hit it because of how powerful it was in PvP. But that nerf (which was too strong in the first place) hit its PvE capability too, making it unusable in any case. I don't want to see that with Shotguns. 

 

What do you have to say? I'm sure there are a lot of people who are all for the nerf, and I would love to hear what you think. Thanks for reading through all this.

 

 


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#2
NOVREHS

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The nerf they got is a little too much, I don't see why they cant just separate the changes from PvE and PVP.

 

The damage fall off doesn't bother me and I support that part, it should be a one hit KO at that melee range, otherwise shotguns are going against its design.

 

The other nerfs are just uncalled for, it's catering way too much to the tears I read on the official forums.

 

Now this is going to make players leap into sniping in PVP now and I mean the camping kinds, they are already starting to come out more than shotgun users now and this nerf gives them reason to stay on it.



#3
Jehuty

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Bungie isn't very good on weapon balancing.


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#4
Sidewinder Mk.49

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The nerf they got is a little too much, I don't see why they cant just separate the changes from PvE and PVP.

 

The damage fall off doesn't bother me and I support that part, it should be a one hit KO at that melee range, otherwise shotguns are going against its design.

 

The other nerfs are just uncalled for, it's catering way too much to the tears I read on the official forums.

 

Now this is going to make players leap into sniping in PVP now and I mean the camping kinds, they are already starting to come out more than shotgun users now and this nerf gives them reason to stay on it.

Though it can be pretty frustrating (very frustrating, actually) to go against a skilled sniper,I don't really mind people camping with snipers. I'm fine with people trying out snipers either. It's the way they tried to deter people from using shotguns that disappoints me. 



#5
the_co_founder

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All of the endgame in TTK requires sniper rifles anyway.  I havent used a shotgun in PVE hardly at all unless having fun on some strikes or doing bounties.  Everything in Kings Fall though is Sniper dependent (unless you are on trash mobs).  

 

The bigger conversation that needs to be had is separation of balance for PVP and PVE.  Nobody anywhere has complained once that shotguns were too OP in PVE.  The only complaint ever about PVE balancing was the requirement for Gjallarhorn in all endgame content.  They took care of that and need to leave the rest alone.  



#6
Fatality

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I like it, but something tells me it's still not going to be enough. Maybe we'll start to see more diversity in special weapons for pvp. If they gave sidearms the ability to go full-auto then that would be perfect.



#7
marckdwesthk

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I read it and was quite happy about it.  RIP Shotguns 



#8
Art of War

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Shotguns in PvP are for the weak. I'll stick to my fusion rifles in PvP and just take the corners wide to avoid the crouching camping shotgunners and take them out with a weapon that requires talent.


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#9
Badgerstate36

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Ive said it before and I'll say it again: the problem isnt shotguns, the problem is blink/shotgun.  Maybe its time to do away with blink?



#10
wonega

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I don't like weapon balancing in general as it's bound to make your favourite weapon trash overnight, better to make slight changes in a random way each week without telling us and letting us discover what's new and become gun masters.



#11
mrscorps

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The concept of balance is a bit skewed as it revolves around feedback from the PVP community and that accounts only to a part of the community in general; some would say, the smaller part even.

 

Shotguns were a bit of an issue in PVP but no where near the level that they have been before. I think there were much more viable ways to tackle the question than this omega nerf that will make shotguns obsolete. The idea of balance shouldn't be to make weapons obsolete but rather to make weapons viable for their own roles. They should have learned something by now with the AR debacle for example.

 

With shotguns now "killed", what will be next? Snipers? Because those have some variants with high aim assist that requires average skill to use and you see them more and more in PVP. I mean, there will always be complaints about a given weapon type. They buffed and improved Pulses and now they are going to be nerfed. Next it will be the scouts. Then someone will complain about ARs and the cycle will have been completed. 



#12
Duke_Shambles

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I haven't really even used a shotgun since 2.0 dropped, and I used to have more PvP Kills with it than anything else. Now Pulse Rifles Dominate my total kills, Snipers are creeping up too.

 

I can't say I miss it. Shotguns are too much of an easy button. It isn't hard to use a Pulse Rifle, and sniping is easier in the this game than any other I've played. But it never feels cheap to me when I snipe someone or gun them down with a primary. Shotgun kills with the old ultra range shot package Matador build felt super cheap some times. There are still builds out there that have pretty long range. I still see alot of people running them as their primary weapon. That shouldn't happen.

 

What I suggest is lowering the availability of special ammo overall and keeping weapons mostly how they are. If keeping it on the same timer. Make the box drop one sniper round and 2 shotgun rounds, regardless of max reserve ammo. Make the stuff a little more scarce so you just simply cannot have a 20 kill game using only your shotgun or sniper.

 

As far as PvE goes, I don't why anyone is even using a shot gun now let alone after the patch. They are PvP Weapons, that's where they have always had their place.



#13
DaniArrow

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I don't mind them trying to nerf shotguns again. No shotgun should kill in one shot unless you're like 2 inches away from your enemies chest. No sniper kills with a body shot either. And it takes a lot more skill to get a good headshot with a sniper than to just rush right towards an enemy with a shotgun and one-shot kill him from miles away. It's too easy.

 

Fusion rifles take a while to charge, snipers only kill with headshots, so I think it's only fair if it's a little harder to kill with a shotgun (either be REALLY close or in a shot & melee combination).


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#14
Old Trusty Palun

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I read about 85% of the comments (stopped after reading MrScorps one) and i can't say i agree with most thigns being said here, i will do with bullet points 

 

  • Is the nerf excessive? YES . To me this is kinda like the hand cannon nerf because of thorn and last word.
  • Are shotguns obsolete? To people who don't use shotguns properly. YES. Anyone using conspiracy theory like a handcannon will have a bad time, and i am happy, it won't change shit to anyone getting close, using structure as cover, and getting the upper positiion and offing you on the head.
  • Are shotguns obsolete in PVE? After their initial buff, they never were. Even after the dmg reduction i used shotguns just fine, people really don't know to move around, and thats their main problem.
  • Was shotgun really a problem? NO. Problem is people abusing combinations, QUICKDRAW + BLINK + Shotgun was a problem. You don't have to nerf blink, you only had to remove the excessive range of shotguns (even keep shot package, JUST REMOVE THE RANGE.) And quickdraw should have never existed, giving extra time to switch weapons and aim was unfair for blade dancers.
  • People will move towards snipers? Maybe, maybe not. I don't care, most people are shitty snipers anyway, you can blind side them so easy its not funny. Same as shotgunners, most of them are crappy, why they choose conpisracy theory instead of chaperone. I never get frustrated when someone shoots me to the head with it, at least he aimed at me, and god knows i don't sit still for it to happened.

 

People will always complain. Because they can't cope with the fact that they re not good enough.

 

Some guns are cheap

 

1. Final round was cheap, so is luck in the chamber, though less annoying

2. Party crasher, matador 64, felwinterlie, conpisracy theory, are cheap long range 1 shotting BS

3. Vex mythoclast (OG) was cheap, and so was suros.

4. Thorn 2 shot and hiding was cheap, and so was last word glitch and hawkmoon sniping 1 shotting.

 

This things are cheap.

 

Now, pulse rifles were above the rest, not because they are OP, but because handcannons ar shit now, and autorifles buff was not enough. They are going to correct that, and hopefully, finnally we will have a truly balance  game.

 

But people will still complain, because thats what people do, they want to be the best, without having to work with it. Noone goes around saying "No land beyond" is cheap or OP, because its a shitty gun that requires a skilled hand to even work decently. 

 

Noone complains about strongbow-D or the chaperone, because if your aim is shit you are not killing anyone soon. Personally, if the buff we are getting now to autorifles happened sooner, handcannons never got nerfed, except the BS from last word, thorn and hawkmoon.

 

We would have the most balance game.


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#15
EmbraceTheEdge

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I'm always against too much meddling and think the nerfs are excassive. Hopefully nerfing weapons into oblivion isn't going to be a constant to keep us grinding. 



#16
michael6745

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A comment on Palun's comment about snipers.  If someone is good enough to headshot me with a sniper while I'm moving, I will actually say out loud.  Good shot. A$$hole...

 

I tend to hard scope too long and that's when I'll get blasted.  I will tend more towards using my Hung Jury to take out snipers scoping me.  I would say at least 8 out of 10 times I win that battle, so I will keep doing it.

 

I'm horrible with a shotgun up close unless I'm hiding and they're standing still.  



#17
HockeyDad21

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I haven't really even used a shotgun since 2.0 dropped, and I used to have more PvP Kills with it than anything else. Now Pulse Rifles Dominate my total kills, Snipers are creeping up too.

 

I can't say I miss it. Shotguns are too much of an easy button. It isn't hard to use a Pulse Rifle, and sniping is easier in the this game than any other I've played. But it never feels cheap to me when I snipe someone or gun them down with a primary. Shotgun kills with the old ultra range shot package Matador build felt super cheap some times. There are still builds out there that have pretty long range. I still see alot of people running them as their primary weapon. That shouldn't happen.

 

What I suggest is lowering the availability of special ammo overall and keeping weapons mostly how they are. If keeping it on the same timer. Make the box drop one sniper round and 2 shotgun rounds, regardless of max reserve ammo. Make the stuff a little more scarce so you just simply cannot have a 20 kill game using only your shotgun or sniper.

 

As far as PvE goes, I don't why anyone is even using a shot gun now let alone after the patch. They are PvP Weapons, that's where they have always had their place.

I'm not in favor of any kind of weapon nerfing at all. I think it is fine the way it is. Shotguns by their very nature are powerful in close range. I like what you said above stating that the amount of drops should be limited or that 1 player is only able to get 1 drop at a time. That way, no one is constantly using a rocket launcher, sniping, using shotgun, etc. 



#18
Mat

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They aren't nerfing them enough. These will be mild annoyances to some, but they will still be used and still have too much range to 1HK someone.

 

They really need a damage reduction iMO.


 

 

Now, pulse rifles were above the rest, not because they are OP, but because handcannons ar shit now, and autorifles buff was not enough. They are going to correct that, and hopefully, finnally we will have a truly balance  game.

 

Being better than everything else is the definition of OP

 

Right now pulses are a touch OP (way too good at all ranges, especially furhter away), and giving everyone a godroll Nirwin just made the problem worse (like giving everyone a godroll Felwinter)



#19
michael6745

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I think they need to have a new faction.  The NeRFs.  "Need everything Reduced Faction"

 

This the hand cannon they'll be offering.

 

roughcutblue-e1426455867679-1024x442.jpg

 

Pulse Rifle

 

1437675478253092012.jpg

 

Shotgun with Clown Mag perk

 

webs-nastiest-nerf-gun-mods.w654.jpg

 

 

The Sniper Rifle

 

nerf-longstrike-sniper-rifle.jpg

 

Rocket Launcher

 

imfmw1swxnwxhrvntbfi.jpg



#20
Lil'Ubo

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Roughcut 2x4 is OP and the Raider shotgun jams like crazy! (i have used it before....)



#21
michael6745

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Roughcut 2x4 is OP and the Raider shotgun jams like crazy! (i have used it before....)

 

So, what you're saying is, they'll go great in with the Destiny arsenal?



#22
Old Trusty Palun

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They aren't nerfing them enough. These will be mild annoyances to some, but they will still be used and still have too much range to 1HK someone.

 

They really need a damage reduction iMO.


 

Being better than everything else is the definition of OP

 

Right now pulses are a touch OP (way too good at all ranges, especially furhter away), and giving everyone a godroll Nirwin just made the problem worse (like giving everyone a godroll Felwinter)

 

Its funny that you mention this, because i was so bored with pulse rifles, that i changed to scout rifles, and my KD  has been even higher.

 

I don't miss pulse rifles one bit, whats more scout rifles will be the new top weapon after the range nerf to pulse rifles, i can't wait.



#23
R MK XXV

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Some of the "nurfs" are pretty ridiculous.

 

Slower moving speed with a shotgun?  So basically people carrying around LMG's and Rocket Launchers can dash by you while your carrying your shotgun.  (...'cause they are lighter ... right?)

 

Longer Stow time?  Again, let me grab my (LMG/RL) Bloop, there it is.  Now let me grab my shotgun ... just hang on a second ... almost got it ... Yep aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand, here it is. 

(Makes no sence ...)

 

What they should have done is remove the reticule from shotguns completely.  Aiming or not, make it go away.  That in it self would probably turn shotguns off to quite a few users.

Makes it more of a weapon of chance with out a solid indication of where your shot is going. 

 

I can understand the Slower reload speeds and quicker range fall off.  Unless its clip fed, it should take longer to reload a shot gun, and the spread of the shot should be less effective the farther out it gets.  Those I'll be fine with. 


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#24
Old Trusty Palun

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Some of the "nurfs" are pretty ridiculous.

 

Slower moving speed with a shotgun?  So basically people carrying around LMG's and Rocket Launchers can dash by you while your carrying your shotgun.  (...'cause they are lighter ... right?)

 

Longer Stow time?  Again, let me grab my (LMG/RL) Bloop, there it is.  Now let me grab my shotgun ... just hang on a second ... almost got it ... Yep aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand, here it is. 

(Makes no sence ...)

 

What they should have done is remove the reticule from shotguns completely.  Aiming or not, make it go away.  That in it self would probably turn shotguns off to quite a few users.

Makes it more of a weapon of chance with out a solid indication of where your shot is going. 

 

I can understand the Slower reload speeds and quicker range fall off.  Unless its clip fed, it should take longer to reload a shot gun, and the spread of the shot should be less effective the farther out it gets.  Those I'll be fine with. 

 

I understand what you mean, but again, this is not a realistic game, this is about balance.

 

LMG and rockets are heavy weapons, which you don't spawn ammo with, plus you die, you loose the ammo, therefore i am all for it for them to be light, and you being able to dash jump w/e

 

therefore i understand that, bungie wants to STOP people to behave like the secondary special, its their primary, which people refuse to do so. So they make this nerfs

 

people will always continue to be like this anyway

 

"move slower?" GOOD i don't even move, i like to be a camper hiding bitch.

 

"Reload slower?" GOOD i use my raid shotgun o i like to be a camper bitch  so i have all the time in the world for realoding"

 

"Stow ready time" GOOD i don't even change to a different weapon

 

"Less time to ADS" Good i never even aim because i use conspiracy theory

 

and so on

 

The range removal its all they need, the dmg drop off should be enough, since its the only problem. Noone with a conspiracy theory will 1 shot someone with better skill with proper dmg falloff